María Emilia Casas (León, 1950) studied Law at the Complutense University of Madrid, where she graduated and obtained her PhD, in both cases with an Extraordinary Prize. She then became the first professor of labor law and social security in Spain and later also the first to chair the Constitutional Court, a body she had joined at the age of 48. She is a great expert in the field of industrial relations, has participated in national and international seminars on this subject and has been part of several groups of experts who have worked on reforms of some aspects of Spanish law. – During the crisis that started in 2008, wages fell relatively and workers’ rights were curtailed. Is that pattern repeating itself? – I don’t think so, because very different policies have been put in place. Starting with the European Commission, which has tackled the problem in a different way, calling on employers and workers to promote recovery. And fiscal policy has also been different. This has enabled extensive social spending supported by ‘next generation’ funds. With all this and a different kind of labor and social policy, it was about leaving no one behind and fighting poverty. – But the current inflation will lead to poverty if it is not stopped. – Indeed, and it is a poverty that affects not only the inactive, but also those who have a job, because that is the effect of inflation. Therefore, the recovery of wages for Brussels is essential for competitiveness and social fairness. It used to be all neoliberal and economic recipes. Now, as I said, the tone is very different. And it is evident from the message itself present in the reports being dealt with in Europe. – How? – In which it is stated that work must lead to a dignified existence. That is why there is even a directive on fair wages. The changes we are undoubtedly facing must be carried out with people in mind, so that not just a few are saved and the majority lose. Let us not forget that the first discrimination that occurs everywhere is that of poverty. Remember that the pandemic crisis has hit Europe unevenly. First it reached Italy, then Spain and France. The first controversy was between countries. And it was seen that where there were strong labor laws, it was easier to deal with the crisis. – And where not? – In these countries there was a strong loss of volume and strength of the middle class, with a massive return of workers from the cities to their places of origin, in many cases in the countryside. I would like us to remember that good legislation, including in the field of health and prevention, also leads to cohesive and fairer societies and is necessary for the efficient functioning of the economic system. The role of laws «If there are strong labor laws, it is easier to withstand crises» The value of agreement – Speaking of labor laws and reforms, it is better to have good laws but passed without consensus of all parties or something worse but that they have everyone’s approval? – Social agreement is a constitutional value. Consultations have also been requested in the EU. And the crisis has shown that it also works when there is not much to do; even if we live in a phase of regulatory uncertainty, because the tsunami of the crisis changes everything. However, I will also tell you that sometimes the price of agreement is silence on certain things. And we have to get used to other formulas. – What do you mean? – Coordinated legislation generally takes longer and provides more certainty for the parties, which is always a value. But we are still very binary. Pro or con. Agreements can be made with one party that the other may not support, but is also not against. They are formulas that don’t just consist of ‘yes’ or ‘no’. Social agreement “The price of an agreement is sometimes silence on certain subjects” – An aspect that now takes a lot of time and negotiation is teleworking. Are we facing a ‘soft’ way to change work life and relationships in companies? – It will undoubtedly be a way of working that will be installed but in several ways. We are heading for a world of occupational diversity and that is just one form of it. Teleworking, along with artificial intelligence, breaks with the concepts of place and working time. – And there’s a lot of concern about that. – I’ve read reports exploring what happened when we were forced to work from home in many cases due to the pandemic. At that first moment some predictions were made that were later not confirmed. I remind you, just to take one example, how e-commerce skyrocketed, causing distribution companies to grow dramatically and now those same companies are laying off people because that volume has dropped. But we are far from returning to pre-pandemic numbers. That is, in the sense that we have taken a step without turning back. – But now you do much more telecommuting than before the covid. – It is true that something that was marginal for us until then was imposed as obligatory. That is no longer the case, but there is a lot of variation per sector. New Adjustments “The changes made must ensure that only a few are saved and the majority are lost” – Has the essence of teamwork been lost, a sense of belonging to a company, even a sense of class? – Personal presence ensures cohesion and corporate identity, but let’s not ignore the fact that there are already many companies that, because of their activity, hire people all over the world precisely because they can work from home. Here, the place of teleworking is chosen by the employee, but the company needs to know. In other places this is not the case. – And the unions? Can they lose their influence by dispersing the workers? – This is clearly a problem for the trade unions, which are losing their influence. But the best systems are hybrids; that is, they always have a face-to-face portion. The formula is a combination of times in which the ratio must be fixed. However, it is clear that telecommuting is ultimately changing the way of life and changing many companies. I talk to him about simple things like restaurants that offer daily menus or taxis have fewer customers on Fridays because many companies work from home that day. And from there to much more subtle changes. All this also has advantages. The so-called ’empty Spain’ could be populated again if a good digital connection is guaranteed. Threatened Jobs – Disparities may also arise that did not exist before. For example, in an industrial company, there are employees who necessarily have to go to the factory every day and others, for administrative tasks, who can telework. Are we creating other forms of discrimination? – It is true that there is a gap depending on whether you have a job that can be done at home or not. And it’s not the only one. There is also the issue of digital skills, which varies from employee to employee. We are undoubtedly moving to more complex work systems. Changes don’t stop and watch what happens with ChatGPT, which is about to introduce radical changes. Adapting to the new professions will force us to put in more effort than when covid hit. Transformations “Teleworking is ultimately changing our way of life and many businesses” – Are you talking about jobs threatened by new technologies? – Yes, and I don’t want to be alarming, but it will hit a lot of jobs. I’ll give you just one example: grocery store cashiers. In a few years, there will be aisles through which customers go with their articles and at most an employee who will help those who are worse off with the system. The employees affected by this change face a major transition: can they continue in another task in the same company or do they have to change radically? 10 or 12% of the jobs of 2030 have not yet been identified, so it is not possible to train someone for them because we don’t know how to train. And that affects many sectors. – Even the most highly qualified? – I will refer to one I know well. In law firms, a well-programmed machine with a well-defined task searches for case law much faster than anyone else. We are facing de-professionalization: we have a very mature workforce and young people have great difficulty entering the labor market because they have no education. Some risks – What are the consequences of all this? – The middle class, which has supported democracy, will be more affected by the new jobs, which will grow at the top and bottom of the qualification and salary scale. In this context, paid training spaces should be recognised, with public funding. The university is starting to move in that direction. And if the university ventures into the field of vocational training, it gives prestige and breaks down some of the watertight boxes that are currently there. Pension system “It would have been better to settle it together with the dependency” – We talk about the future and we may not have talked about the crucial point: pensions. – It’s not a modern thing. This already affected social security in 2008. As employment has become more precarious, the system has suffered. The proposed reform is about obtaining income from the income that so far has not contributed to Social Security. It doesn’t seem like a bad analysis to me, and if implemented gradually, I don’t think it will affect competitiveness. We are going to get a higher price in order to also get a higher pension later, with a small difference that the system will compensate. The times call for changes and that does not seem revolutionary to me. In the end, there are only three options: increasing the premium, increasing the resources from taxes or transferring pensions to the private initiative. Or part of it. – It does not seem to be a problem with an easy solution, as verified in France. – Labor law and social security have a fundamental supporting value in a crisis, as we have seen. The pandemic prevented unemployment from growing as it has since 2008. What is happening now is that our society is beginning to serve the elderly better than the young. Perhaps it would have been better to arrange all this we are talking about together with the agency, as happened in Germany, for example.
Source: La Verdad
I’m Ben Stock, a journalist and author at Today Times Live. I specialize in economic news and have been working in the news industry for over five years. My experience spans from local journalism to international business reporting. In my career I’ve had the opportunity to interview some of the world’s leading economists and financial experts, giving me an insight into global trends that is unique among journalists.
